openssl-users Digest, Vol 100, Issue 34

Sat Mar 18 01:45:59 UTC 2023

I prefer mail list so that it is pushed out when topics are immediately relevant. I don't like getting messages to go to a web site and navigate.

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Mar 17, 2023 12:12:11 PM openssl-users-request at openssl.org:

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> Today's Topics:
> 
>    1. RE: OpenSSL project is considering to close this mailing list
>       (Job Cacka)
>    2. Re: OpenSSL project is considering to close this mailing list
>       (Tomas Mraz)
>    3. Re: [External] : RE: OpenSSL project is considering to close
>       this mailing list (Thomas Dwyer III)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2023 07:51:55 -0700
> From: "Job Cacka" <job at ccbox.com>
> To: <openssl-users at openssl.org>, "'Tomas Mraz'" <tomas at openssl.org>
> Subject: RE: OpenSSL project is considering to close this mailing list
> Message-ID: <001c01d958e0$049f7d20$0dde7760$@ccbox.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;   charset="UTF-8"
> 
> You have at least a half dozen excellent reasons to continue to support this mailing list, but my case is unique to those previous reasons so I will add it into the mix.
> 
> In my career (IT Manager) I support many users and applications that use OpenSSL of various implementations. In developing a sane and business oriented support system with a focus on securing our data I discovered it was necessary to learn more about the technology behind SSL/TLS. To "self-learn" something requires a person to know what they don't know. An email newsgroup is a way to help facilitate learning what I don't know in bite size chunks that allows me to retain that knowledge. I might read a question by Bob, Bill or Sam that makes me realize there is a gap in my own knowledge base. Then I might read a response by Tomas, Ralph or Martha that explains the issue in ways I hadn't previously considered. This is the classical educational model at work. It is based upon healthy discussion of the topic. In this mailing list you have a large enough discussion group to maintain this on a regular, daily basis. Please don't through it away.
> 
> I would postulate a few things.
> 
> First, by even mentioning the dissolution of this list you threaten the long term viability of this list. It would have been better to first look to the members of the list to solve the real problems in the list. What are they?
> 
> Second, the trickle of quality information delivered to the inbox from a mailing list is difficult to duplicate in other ways (this is a reason they are still used effectively). One could argue RSS is a replacement but it is one switch away from being turned off.
> 
> Third, by turning off this list you will lose any participation you might have gained from those of us in the weeds. I won't have time to search through github on a regular basis. I barely have time to read the 10-15 quality emails I get from the list a day.
> 
> Keep the list. Keep your non-expert users/admins. Keep educating people in the weeds on how to clean up the areas they find themselves in and let us know how to help.
> 
> Thanks,
> Job Cacka
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: openssl-users <openssl-users-bounces at openssl.org> On Behalf Of Olivier Mascia via openssl-users
> Sent: Friday, March 17, 2023 7:08 AM
> To: openssl-users <openssl-users at openssl.org>
> Subject: Re: OpenSSL project is considering to close this mailing list
> 
> Hello,
> 
> Closing the users (openssl-users) mailing list might not be a good idea.
> 
> My personal case: as a developer who happens to use OpenSSL (and not an OpenSSL developer), I certainly wouldn't have time and interest to have a look to new ongoing discussions through dedicated web resources.
> 
> On the general matter: email is an *old* technology on the Internet, one of the oldest for sure, if not *the* oldest, telnet set aside.  It has issues, in relation with its age, which are expectable, acceptable and manageable.  Does this make it evil?  Is replacing email, with countless different web-based forums, groups, systems, of all sorts, really the next invaluable evolutionary step?  Well I may have grown too old, just like email, to see the obvious advantages of loosing my remaining time "online", visiting countless of various sites, systems, authenticating myself here and there, just to grab the flow of communications which, before, were conveniently delivered straight to my door (my email inbox).
> 
> --
> Olivier Mascia
> 
>> Le 17 mars 2023 ? 11:04, Tomas Mraz <tomas at openssl.org> a ?crit :
>> 
>> Hello all openssl-users mailing list contributors,
>> 
>> as the focus of the OpenSSL users and developers community is now on
>> the OpenSSL project GitHub page [1] we are considering closing this
>> mailing list. We would like to move to using Issues [2] and Pull
>> requests [3] in GitHub to discuss topics and ask questions related to
>> using and developing  OpenSSL in a single location as this provides
>> better tracking and searching and we believe this will help us serve
>> our community better.
>> 
>> We would still keep the mailing list read-only so the archives of the
>> discussions are not lost.
>> 
>> We are seeking input on this potential change if you are currently
>> actively contributing on openssl-users mailing list discussion and you
>> believe such a change would substantially reduce your participation in
>> the project.
>> 
>> [1] https://github.com/openssl/openssl/
>> [2] https://github.com/openssl/openssl/issues
>> [3] https://github.com/openssl/openssl/pulls
>> 
>> Kind regards,
>> 
>> --
>> Tom?? Mr?z, OpenSSL
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2023 17:09:26 +0100
> From: Tomas Mraz <tomas at openssl.org>
> To: Job Cacka <job at ccbox.com>, openssl-users at openssl.org
> Subject: Re: OpenSSL project is considering to close this mailing list
> Message-ID:
>     <700c04f4e9b69f9c962a63794453a0fdf9e19b2f.camel at openssl.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> 
> On Fri, 2023-03-17 at 07:51 -0700, Job Cacka wrote:
>> 
>> First, by even mentioning the dissolution of this list you threaten
>> the long term viability of this list. It would have been better to
>> first look to the members of the list to solve the real problems in
>> the list. What are they?
> 
> The main problem we see is that there are many places where to go for
> OpenSSL related advice and it is unclear which place is the best if you
> want to ask some question. So then the question(s) either do not reach
> all the potential communities and users that could answer them or the
> questions are duplicated at all (or some) of the possible places which
> is ugly too.
> 
> That problem can be hardly solved by any other ways than by simply
> removing some of the places.
> 
> Now the question of course is whether that problem is so critical that
> fixing it is worth alienating existing users of the place that would be
> closed.
> 
> Without asking the question we would not even know how many users do
> not consider github as acceptable place to go to. So it was necessary
> to ask that question.
> 
> -- 
> Tom?? Mr?z, OpenSSL
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2023 09:11:02 -0700
> From: Thomas Dwyer III <thomas.dwyer at oracle.com>
> To: openssl-users at openssl.org
> Subject: Re: [External] : RE: OpenSSL project is considering to close
>     this mailing list
> Message-ID: <0f42663e-1559-25b1-9221-e1a77cda93c1 at oracle.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"
> 
> Job has articulated this much better than I could have ever done. Please
> do not close the list. It has been and continues to be my primary
> learning vehicle for OpenSSL functionality, its APIs, and its
> evolutionary progress. While my contributions to the list have been
> minimal, the knowledge that I receive from it is immeasurable. It has
> quickly become obvious to me who the experts are here and which names
> immediately catch my attention as someone to whom I should pay
> attention. These emails are delivered passively right to my inbox where
> I read them along side everything else. If this content moves to github
> where I have to proactively go search for it, I will probably just stop
> paying attention.
> 
> 
> Tom.III
> 
> 
> On 3/17/23 07:51, Job Cacka wrote:
>> You have at least a half dozen excellent reasons to continue to support this mailing list, but my case is unique to those previous reasons so I will add it into the mix.
>>  
>> In my career (IT Manager) I support many users and applications that use OpenSSL of various implementations. In developing a sane and business oriented support system with a focus on securing our data I discovered it was necessary to learn more about the technology behind SSL/TLS. To "self-learn" something requires a person to know what they don't know. An email newsgroup is a way to help facilitate learning what I don't know in bite size chunks that allows me to retain that knowledge. I might read a question by Bob, Bill or Sam that makes me realize there is a gap in my own knowledge base. Then I might read a response by Tomas, Ralph or Martha that explains the issue in ways I hadn't previously considered. This is the classical educational model at work. It is based upon healthy discussion of the topic. In this mailing list you have a large enough discussion group to maintain this on a regular, daily basis. Please don't through it away.
>> 
>> I would postulate a few things.
>> 
>> First, by even mentioning the dissolution of this list you threaten the long term viability of this list. It would have been better to first look to the members of the list to solve the real problems in the list. What are they?
>> 
>> Second, the trickle of quality information delivered to the inbox from a mailing list is difficult to duplicate in other ways (this is a reason they are still used effectively). One could argue RSS is a replacement but it is one switch away from being turned off.
>> 
>> Third, by turning off this list you will lose any participation you might have gained from those of us in the weeds. I won't have time to search through github on a regular basis. I barely have time to read the 10-15 quality emails I get from the list a day.
>> 
>> Keep the list. Keep your non-expert users/admins. Keep educating people in the weeds on how to clean up the areas they find themselves in and let us know how to help.
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Job Cacka
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: openssl-users<openssl-users-bounces at openssl.org>  On Behalf Of Olivier Mascia via openssl-users
>> Sent: Friday, March 17, 2023 7:08 AM
>> To: openssl-users<openssl-users at openssl.org>
>> Subject: Re: OpenSSL project is considering to close this mailing list
>> 
>> Hello,
>> 
>> Closing the users (openssl-users) mailing list might not be a good idea.
>> 
>> My personal case: as a developer who happens to use OpenSSL (and not an OpenSSL developer), I certainly wouldn't have time and interest to have a look to new ongoing discussions through dedicated web resources.
>> 
>> On the general matter: email is an *old* technology on the Internet, one of the oldest for sure, if not *the* oldest, telnet set aside.  It has issues, in relation with its age, which are expectable, acceptable and manageable.  Does this make it evil?  Is replacing email, with countless different web-based forums, groups, systems, of all sorts, really the next invaluable evolutionary step?  Well I may have grown too old, just like email, to see the obvious advantages of loosing my remaining time "online", visiting countless of various sites, systems, authenticating myself here and there, just to grab the flow of communications which, before, were conveniently delivered straight to my door (my email inbox).
>> 
>> --
>> Olivier Mascia
>> 
>>> Le 17 mars 2023 ? 11:04, Tomas Mraz<tomas at openssl.org>  a ?crit :
>>> 
>>> Hello all openssl-users mailing list contributors,
>>> 
>>> as the focus of the OpenSSL users and developers community is now on
>>> the OpenSSL project GitHub page [1] we are considering closing this
>>> mailing list. We would like to move to using Issues [2] and Pull
>>> requests [3] in GitHub to discuss topics and ask questions related to
>>> using and developing  OpenSSL in a single location as this provides
>>> better tracking and searching and we believe this will help us serve
>>> our community better.
>>> 
>>> We would still keep the mailing list read-only so the archives of the
>>> discussions are not lost.
>>> 
>>> We are seeking input on this potential change if you are currently
>>> actively contributing on openssl-users mailing list discussion and you
>>> believe such a change would substantially reduce your participation in
>>> the project.
>>> 
>>> [1]https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/openssl/openssl/__;!!ACWV5N9M2RV99hQ!K4UZ7iGcB4Hqfn5xl4NHcFJmfTk-ukYmIV3mc_KEXghGOW6359smr42cPImIRjJyG9syGPxyhgEcYQ$ 
>>> [2]https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/openssl/openssl/issues__;!!ACWV5N9M2RV99hQ!K4UZ7iGcB4Hqfn5xl4NHcFJmfTk-ukYmIV3mc_KEXghGOW6359smr42cPImIRjJyG9syGPw4hxmZTQ$ 
>>> [3]https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/openssl/openssl/pulls__;!!ACWV5N9M2RV99hQ!K4UZ7iGcB4Hqfn5xl4NHcFJmfTk-ukYmIV3mc_KEXghGOW6359smr42cPImIRjJyG9syGPx1cb7mgw$ 
>>> 
>>> Kind regards,
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Tom?? Mr?z, OpenSSL
>>> 
>> 
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